Conversation Series: Black Women Thought Leaders - The Intersection of Politics, Social Justice, and Faith - Part 1

In celebration of both Black History Month in February and Women's History Month in March, Mary put together this conversation series.

During the second interview of the series, Mary talks with Stacey Abrams' former press secretary, Jaylen Black. The two discuss how disability is viewed in the Black community, intersectionality, the disconnect between social and Disability Justice, and faith.

Jaylen Black is a communications professional who has spoken on behalf of some of the most powerful individuals in Georgia. Her previous roles include Director of Surrogate Communications for Reverend Warnock’s runoff election, Press Secretary and Spokesperson for Stacey Abrams for Governor 2022 race, and Georgia Press Secretary for Senator Reverend Warnock’s federal office. She has experience handling crisis Communications and plethora of political issues. 

You can follow Jaylen on social media here and here.

The Politics of Disability was named Best Interview Podcast at the Astoria Film Festival in both October 2022 and again in June 2023.

Transcript

[music playing as Mary speaks]

Mary: Hello everyone and welcome to season 2 of the award-winning podcast The Politics of Disability. 

My name is Mary Fashik. I am your host and founder of the Disability Justice movement Upgrade Accessibility. We’re still navigating that bumpy road, but there are lots of potholes along the way. 

You’ll want to make sure you’re buckled up really tight. 

All set? Here we go. 

[music playing]

Mary: Hello and thank you so much for joining me today. would you please introduce yourself to the audience?

Jaylen: Well, first, thank you for having me, Mary. My name is Jaylen Black. I'm the former press secretary and spokesperson for the Stacey Abrams for Governor race. A little bit after that, I served for Senator Reverend Warnock's runoff election as Director of Surrogate Communications. And prior to that, I actually worked for Senator Warnock on his federal office, and being his Georgia based press secretary.

Very excited to be here today. I'm a Georgia native, someone that loves to do this work, loves to talk to Mary and about these issues. So, just very honored to be on your show today.

Mary: I'm so honored to have you, Jaylen. And Jaylen is just a badass. Like, Jaylen is a person who goes above and beyond, who is so dedicated to the work. And when we talk about this work, we talk about social justice work. We talk about racial justice. But there’s a disconnect between Disability Justice and social justice. And I'm sure you saw that during your campaign. Why do you think there’s such a disconnect between the two, when the two are inherently linked together?

Jaylen: Absolutely. And I couldn't agree more that they're very linked. Well, first, I'm proud that Stacey Abrams for Governor Campaign ran one of the most, if not the most inclusive campaigns in the country. Something that we really focused on was making sure, to your point that we can advocate for issues, advocate for people, but that has to be inclusive of every Georgian.

And what every Georgian is, is every single person that absolutely includes a disability community. So I'm proud that we were an accessible campaign. We have full time staffers who did American Sign Language. We had staffers with disabilities. We have staffers who come from the States, as the incredible Dom Kelly doing the work that he is doing now, and what he's been doing in the past.

But to the point, like, it is interesting that you have this disconnect from social justice and Disability Justice/disability rights, when they are intersectional. I think we have a hard time in this country understanding that, you know, disabilities aren't always something that you can see. It’s not always something that you can understand. I think a lot of people, when they can't relate to things, and that's, you know, broader than disability rights, like whether they don't identify with a group or something like that, they feel like this is a place where it doesn't need advocacy, you know?

And until you actually talk to people, until you're actually among the community and hear directly from them, like, people aren't understanding that our state lacks in accessibility from our schools to our health care to all sorts of things across our state, that it’s just…is not fair. So there absolutely needs to be more intersection. Because I would argue that, you know, when you're in a marginalized community, it's in all of our best interests to lean on each other and to advocate together.

I mean, you can look at the Civil Rights Movement when it was a lot of stories made, but it had influence on America's disability rights movement as well. Because we're talking about rights and we're talking about the access that people do not have. And it is in all of our best interests to make sure we are all included in that front.

And I think we can absolutely do a better job. And that's something that I'm hoping that, you know, the work of Dom Kelly and many like Mary, and across the state and across this country, can really amplify their voices. And making sure that this has to be a intersectional issue.

Mary: And, you know, it’s ironic, because intersectionality is a principle of Disability Justice. So we're talking about intersectionality, and we’re talking about social justice. And yet, we leave out the disabled community. And, you know, many don’t know that, because of the Black Panthers, we as disabled individuals have rights. Because, at the 504 Sit-In, which was fundamental. That gave us fundamental civil rights as a disability community. The Black Panthers fed the protesters. So without them, there would be no civil rights. How many people in marginalized communities, specifically in the Black community, who are non-disabled, are even aware that the Black Panthers were so fundamental in the disability rights movement?.

Jaylen: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. That's – that's something you wouldn't know unless you were to read about it. And I encourage, you know, everyone listening, regardless of your age, regardless of your pedigree, we have to continue learning. Because if you look back at these movements, to your point, like the Civil rights movement as well, a lot of workers’ rights advocacy. It wasn't just Black or white.

We're talking about groups in our country that are marginalized. And it's like we can't say in one breath, “Hey, like I'm a Black American. We have these issues, but I'm going to forget about everybody else. I'm going to forget about women. I'm going to forget about the disabled. I'm going to forget about workers’ rights.” Like, no, like you have more voice, particularly in Congress, but more voice in advocacy, in general, when you bring more people to the table.

Mary: To that point, I had a friend of mine say to me, who is Black, he said, “You cannot be Black and. So you cannot be Black and disabled, or Black and queer, or Black and whatever. That that is viewed as negative within the Black community. What are your thoughts? Why is Black and disabled viewed the way it is in the Black community? And not just in the Black community, but every community. But specifically, the Black community it’s historically, and you can check me on this…But historically, the roots are based in church, in spirituality. So there’s this idea that disabled people need to be healed. So, I know that was a lot. But talk to me about the “Black and” identities, specifically why “Black and disabled” is viewed negatively within the community. And why is there this urge to heal disabled individuals?

Jaylen: Absolutely. So I'll start from the beginning, to your friend’s point. Well, first I want to say, of course, I can't speak for every Black person in this country. But in my perspective as a Gen Z, Black woman raised in the South, you know, raised in the church…I think to your friend's point that he's trying to make is that: I tell people often or when asked that, when I think about how I identify in this world, Black comes first. Because that is just the first thing that people think of if they're able to physically see me.

And that's like, “There's this tall Black woman in here.” You know, even before they think of, like, the womanhood or think of, you know, any of my other identities that they can't physically see, it is, “You're Black.” So you're in a minority in this country. But at the same time, Black people are so diverse. There's Black people with disabilities.

There's Black people who are queer. There's Black people who are mixed race. There's no one way to be Black. So, I definitely would disagree with the notion that you can't be Black and something else. Because while black might be my most salient identity, because that seems to me more salient in the Southern culture that I grew up in, it’s absolutely not fully who I am.

So, Mary, you made a good point about this notion of disabilities and wanting to be healed in the church and this idea that that is even possible. Number one, let's be clear. There's no sort of spiritual healing for being who you are. And even that idea that, like we can say, “We'll just pray it away?” Like, there's nothing wrong with being who you are.

So, we have to embrace. You know, I grew up Black, Southern Baptist Christian. And I'm very proud to be a woman of faith. But being a person of a progressive nature challenged me to learn and unlearn a lot of things that I heard in the church. You know, it was things that I was just like, “Okay, well, we say that God loves everybody. But in the same breath, why do we treat certain people differently?”

Or even if somebody sees a physical disability? Right? And I stress that because, as you know, a lot of disabilities you cannot see. A lot of us carry disabilities that it's not necessarily something you might know about. And that is a reality for a lot of people, I think, in America in particular, but I would argue in the world people are really good at, like, conforming to the norm. “Let me make myself appear to be as normal, to make these people feel comfortable. Because I know, if I'm my full self in this room, I might get more looks.”

So I think, you know, being Black in the South is its own thing. So I think sometimes people don't want to just carry other levels of impression. But you have to be who you are and people have to accept that for what it is. Cause when you say, “Oh, let's heal this,” or, “Oh, let’s take advantage of this,” that’s saying that it was a problem in the first place. But in reality, disabled people with everyone else, you're a child of God.

You're someone that God loves, whether you believe in God or not. That is the true faith, is that God would not feel like anything of his product is imperfect by any means. So I think it's interesting to find these intersectionalities with faith and disability and what you can say. I mean, I heard that a lot with the LGBTQ community, like, “Oh, we'll pray the gay away,” or “Oh, these conversion camps.” Like it – it’s ridiculous.

You know, it’s something that you can't just feel like there is some imperfection in God's image. Because he made us who we are and we should be proud of that regardless.

Mary: I am a recovering Catholic. [laugh] I grew up in the Catholic Church. But, you know, people would come up to me in the store and be like, “Oh can I pray for you?” And I'm like, “Why?” You know, like, “There’s nothing wrong with me. If you believe that we’re all made in God’s image, and God’s image is perfect, then why do you want to pray for me? That means I am perfect in God’s eyes. Which means I should be perfect in your eyes too, if you claim to be a Christian.”

And I can’t tell you the amount of ableism I faced in the Catholic Church. I was never good enough. I taught Sunday school for 15 years. And in the 15 years, I was never good enough, and especially when I moved to Georgia, when I moved to Brunswick. I realize, now, the racism and the ableism. Because those two are inherently tied together. And I realized the racism, now, and the ableism that I faced. Because parents complained every single year that I taught. “Oh we can't understand her.” Well guess what? Your child understood me just fine. So what’s the problem? Because your child does not have the bias that you have already.

And where I live, there are two Catholic churches. And for me that was weird. Because in Miami, there’s a Catholic Church, like, every couple blocks. So, to go from a bunch to like two up here was weird. So when I switched to the church on St. Simon’s Island…Now, St. Simon’s Island, people have privilege. People have money there. All the tourists go there. When I switched to that church, that was predominantly white, I was made very aware that was not white. And that is something that I say. Living in Brunswick has taught me really quick that I’m not white, and that other people know that I’m not white, and that they feel that they can treat me a certain way because I’m not white. And it’s just like…it’s amazing to me the amount of ableism and racism. The Director of Religious Education was a white woman who had a disability. And the way she spoke to me, as opposed to everyone else. Even my roommate – who was my co-teacher – she would be so pleasant with her, and in the next breath, be rude to me.   

And my roommate was like, “I don’t understand.” I’m like, “What don’t you understand? You’re white and you’re non-disabled. I’m disabled and I’m not white.” And it was like the most hor– I’m still very traumatized by everything I went through when I was teaching. So, I always say, “I don’t want to be Christian. I want to be Christ-like.” Because this idea of being Christian, especially in the climate we’re in now, has been, like, muddled.

And maybe you can talk a little bit more about this because you worked for Senator Reverend Warnock. When you were working for him, his campaign, without going into too much detail… Was it ever, like, a thing about they would bring up, like Christian values during the campaign because he’s a Black man? If he was a white man, it'd be, “Oh, he's a man of God.”

But because he was Black, I'm going to assume. And I’ll let you take it over from here.

Jaylen: Yeah, absolutely. So Senator Warnock represents something that the country has really never seen before. You've never seen a pastor in the Senate, number one. But I think also a lot of people haven't seen Black faith. And like Christianity as it looks like in the Black church. So it challenged him. To your point, I do think if Senator Warnock was a white man, it'd be like, “Wow, we have a man of God, like representing our great state of Georgia.” And there's this just understanding that we can love our faith and like it doesn't have to have strong ties to like our racial and ethnic background because it's our faith, like we serve one God. But it was always those challenges. For example, people couldn't understand, “How can you be pro-LGBTQ and a pastor?” Like, “He's not preaching the gospel.”

There is a lot of attacks on like, you know, his sermons because he is by nature a open person. He's someone that is accepting of all individuals as Christ-like individuals would be someone that has been in the ministry all his life, someone who, you know, we all read the same Bible. You know, I think a lot of some of the flaws of Christianity is that interpretation has historically led to oppression. Right?

Like it has historically led to colonization. It has historically led to people wanting to anchor other people because, hey, I'm a Christian, you're not let me help you. And I think this is something you brought up earlier that was interesting is like this whole idea that you need help or that you want somebody praying for you in the grocery store, like, “What are you trying to say?”

You know, So we experience that a lot with Senator Warnock. Like we will have people come to his church and want to protest, like, “Oh, there's no way that you can accept people of LGBT community, accept people of the disability community, accept…” You know, like, “That's not right. That's not my gospel. You know? And I'm like, “But are we serving the same God?” You know, “Are we reading the same scripture?”

So it’s a lot about interpretation. And people have used their interpretation of Christianity and the Bible to give themselves reasons to oppress other people. I mean, to be quite frankly, like sometimes I think there is a constant struggle within the Black community of loving their faith. And of course, you know, all Black people aren’t Christian. But speaking for Christ-like people is, there is this constant, like ongoing battle of, you know, I love my faith and I love what it stands for.

But, you know, there are some things that I'm not necessarily like 100% supporting. You know, like why do we treat some sins greater than others? Like some people sat up in church having premarital sex. But that's okay. But don't let you be gay or don't let you come up in here. You know, any sort…like and it's just it was just this interesting dynamic that again like you have to learn and unlearn.

But you definitely saw it a lot with Senator Warnock. Even the way that he presented himself on the Senate floor, like when he gave floor speeches, it as he starts taking the policy in the he makes it biblical. He brings this like, moral voice into it. When he says, “I believe everybody in the state deserves health care because health care is a human right. And it's something that people that are of faith, we want that for all people.” 

We're talking about the common decency of making sure people in our country, particularly in our state, have access to things that should be human rights in this country that are not. So I'm glad to see that we have six years for the reverend. I think a lot of people will kind of learn from him being in office, and you know. what that represents – being a Black man of faith, but with progressive ideologies. And I'm happy to see the work that he will do, particularly in disability spaces and bills that he'll sign on. So America has a lot of learning to do. And it starts with talking to people. Actually talking to people. Like reading is helpful, but you have to get you have to actually learn from just hearing from others.

That's what I'm really grateful for my time at the University of Georgia. Because that was definitely a culture shock for me. I'm from DeKalb County in a predominantly Black area, so sometimes I felt like I was in class, you know, preaching to the choir on these issues, like not saying we always agreed, but like we coming from similar backgrounds, communities. But going to the University of Georgia, I was like, “Wow, there's people that fundamentally don't believe that I should be here.” You know? Or that I'm a 5’11” Black woman.

And oftentimes I would walk around and campus as a student and they would be like, “Oh my God, like, are you on the basketball team? Like, are you here to play a sport?” And I'm just like, “No, I just did well on my standardized tests, had a good GPA, got into school, got my tuition paid for, just like you.” You know? So there's just this idea that we have to unlearn what we think about people. Like, it is not a bad thing.

That's what I try to express to my non-Black friends or just friends that we don't identify in a lot of background categories. It's that we all have things to learn. And something you say said Mary, which it made me think about, is: this idea of privilege itself. A lot of times we hear it in the state of, like, white people. But you being a able-bodied person is privilege in this country.

Like that is why you don't even think about some of these issues. Because you had never had to experience them, you know? Like, it shouldn’t take you to be in a position to where, “Oh, I understand it now because I see it. No, you have to get out of your bubble, get out of your comfort zone. Because you have privilege when you are in the majority of anything.

So as someone who is able-bodied, I have privilege, you know? And it's not a way we think about it in the South. It’s like, “Okay, yeah, white people have privilege.” No. We have a lot of privileges, like growing up in a two-parent household, in a home, in the suburbs. Like, that is my privilege. You know, we all have our privileges.

And once we realize, okay, these things that we have in our life benefit us, we can see how it is not benefiting a lot of people across this world who don't identify the way you do.

Mary: And, you know, I always say I have privilege. I am a brown disabled woman, but I have privilege. Because I know a lot of my community who is disabled and Black, who don’t have privilege. So I use my privilege to amplify their voices. Because that’s what you’re supposed to do. Do I have white privilege? Absolutely not. Do I have the privilege of a non-disabled person? Absolutely not. But do I have privilege? Absolutely. And I have to think about that.   

And going back to what you said about, “We all read the same Bible,” I don’t think we all read the same Bible. I think some people read a very skewed Bible of theirs. 

Both: [laughs]

Mary: So, no I don’t think we are all reading the same Bible. And we talk about “Christian” behavior, right? The pandemic, when people who claim to be Christian won’t wear a mask. And I’m like, “Okay, but you don’t understand. COVID could kill me.” And they're like, “No, you’ll be fine.” And I’m like, “Okay, can you wear a mask?” “No, I can’t do that.” Or, “Can you get vaccinated?” “No, I don’t believe in that.” And it’s like…then you’re not Christian. 

If we’re supposed to protect and love each other, and love your fellow humankind, doing that means: wearing a mask, getting vaccinated if you can. And, you know, going back to what you said about privilege, there are layers to privilege. Right? And there's so much nuance with privilege. So, like I was saying about being a brown disabled woman. There’s nuance to that, right? So, my brownness gives me privilege, but also does not. You know? 

And it’s like, being a cisgendered woman gives me privilege, but at the same time, doesn’t give me privilege. So, there are layers to privilege. And one thing I always say in my advocacy is that: “If you're white and disabled, you have privilege.” 

And let me tell you how much pushback I get when I say that, and how much pushback I get when I say: “Black Disabled Lives Matter.”

Mary: Oh no, we aren’t done yet. Come back for part two to find out where this goes.

[music playing while Mary speaks] Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Politics of Disability Podcast. As you navigate your journey, remember: disability is political; disability is messy; disability is not palatable--nor does it have to be.

[music playing]