BONUS EPISODE: The Intersection of the Drag World and Disability

In this season 2 bonus episode, Mary sits down with RuPaul's Drag Race season 11 finalist, host of Canada's Drag Race and executive producer/host of 1 Queen, 5 Queers, Brooke Lynn Hytes.

The two discuss the differences in perceptions of disability in Canada and the United States, disabled representation in the Drag Race ecosystem and the lack thereof. Will there ever be a more accessible Drag Race format for disabled/chronically ill drag performers?

They also discuss misconceptions surrounding disabled individuals, the future of 1 Queen 5 Queers, the inaccessibility of drag shows and whether or not virtual drag shows will be making a comeback.

The Politics of Disability was named Best Interview Podcast at the Astoria Film Festival in both October 2022 and again in June 2023.

Transcript

[music playing as Mary speaks]

Mary: Hello everyone and welcome to season 2 of the award-winning podcast The Politics of Disability. 

My name is Mary Fashik. I am your host and founder of the Disability Justice movement Upgrade Accessibility. We’re still navigating that bumpy road, but there are lots of potholes along the way. 

You’ll want to make sure you’re buckled up really tight. 

All set? Here we go. 

[music playing]

Mary: Hello, and thank you so much for joining me today. Would you please introduce yourself to the audience?

Brooke Lynn: Hello audience, my name is Brooke Lynn Hytes. You may know me from season 11 of RuPaul's Drag Race. I'm also the host of Canada's Drag Race. And I also have my own show in Canada called 1 Queen 5 Queers.

Mary: Thank you so much for joining me today. This is an honor and a privilege to get to share this space with you, so thank you for joining me. 

Brooke Lynn: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I know it's taken me a minute to get here, but I'm very happy to be here. [laugh]

Mary: Thank you. I know you grew up in Canada. And I want to ask: like, in your environment, in the Canadian culture, what was the impression of disability? And what was your impression of disabled kids when you grew up? Did you know anyone who was disabled? Because I know a lot of people say, “Mary, you’re like the first disabled person I met, when I was in school.” Did you know anyone who was disabled? What was your impression?

Brooke Lynn: I really didn't. Honestly, like, I got this question, and I was kind of think back. I really did not know a lot of disabled people growing up, which is quite strange. I remember there was one. I went to school with him from grade, I'm going to say, like, one to grade five. And his name, his name was Gary. And he was a very, very sweet kid. And I don't think he was diagnosed as disabled, but he definitely wasn't like the other kids.

And he was definitely in an environment that he shouldn't have been in because he wasn't getting the proper care he needed in terms of education. He definitely needed extra help with things. And so he was with us for a couple of years in school, and then he went away and I never saw him again. But I think he was definitely the first disabled person – I don't think he was diagnosed disabled at the time – but he was probably the first disabled person I ever met. And then, my whole school life after that, like, was really at an art school and then a ballet school. So there really, again, wasn't a lot of disabled people in that environment as well. But I think growing up, just because I was not around it a lot, and it wasn't something that was prevalent in my life, I think I definitely felt a little scared or a little uneasy, uncomfortable. 

Because again, if it's not something that's normal to you, especially as a kid, and you see someone who looks different than you, who acts different than you, it's a little bit unnerving, you know? So, I think maybe that was probably my first impression.

Mary: And for a lot of us who are disabled, we have this internalized ableism, myself included. So, because I was mainstreamed into classes with my non-disabled peers, I never wanted to associate with my disabled peers. Because I had been mocked and bullied. And I was like, “Well, I’m not like those kids, so I don’t want to be amongst those kids.” So, I also was scared of, like, kids that look different than me or act different than me. 

Because I didn’t fully understand. Even as a disabled child growing up, I didn’t understand the nuance and the differences when it came to disabilities. Do you remember if there was a separate department in your school for, like, disabled kids? We don’t use the term “Special Education” anymore. That’s very outdated. But do you remember? Because I know, growing up in Miami, we had a whole department that was dedicated to disabled kids, and they were segregated from the non-disabled kids. 

Brooke Lynn: Yeah. I mean, it was definitely called “Special Education” [laugh] when I was in primary school. Yeah, I remember very specifically. Yeah. There was a class for kids who needed a little bit of extra help or who didn't … English wasn't their first language, etc., etc., etc. They were all kind of lumped together in one group. And yeah, so I do remember that.

I don't remember it so much in middle school. I'm sure there was, but I just don't remember.

Mary: How do you feel disability is viewed in Canada versus the US? Is disability viewed differently? You’ve lived in both. So your experience with disability in Canada versus the US. I have family in Montreal, and we spent like a couple summers in Montreal with family. And we’re talking about like mid-90s, so that was a long time ago. But I remember it not being very accessible compared to here in the US. Do you feel like disability is viewed differently? Do you feel like the disabled community is not acknowledged in Canada? I feel as though we’re not acknowledged here either, right? But like, is it less so in Canada? How is that?     

Brooke Lynn: I, quite honestly, don't know. Me being a Canadian and Canadians have this, like, weird thing that we're like, “Oh, everything's better in Canada,” you know? “Everything's better in Canada. We're just, we're nicer. Like, we're more advanced than the rest of the world, especially the States.” Like, it's fine, but that's obviously not always the case. So yeah, I really have no idea.

I want to say it's better in Canada than in the States. [laugh] But it could very well be that the States is ahead of us in terms of accessibility and making disabled folks feel comfortable and feel included. And just even like simple things like being able to get around.

Mary: And I think that speaks volumes, that you’re like, “I really don’t know.” Because it’s, like, so often, you know, if you are not disabled, this is something that you don’t pay attention to. And then, every now and then there’ll be a headline or something, right?

Brooke Lynn: Mmmhmm. 

Mary: So, I think that that speaks volumes. I want to talk about Drag Race. I want to talk about, particularly, Canada’s Drag Race. I think you have more of a hand in Canada’s Drag Race than you can speak on Drag Race here in the US. Are we gonna see more, like, (visibly) physically disabled queens on Drag Race? Do you feel like there are access barriers in the way, because of the physicality of the challenges? Right? So, like, all of these challenges are very physical. So like, I’ll just use myself as an example. I watch a lot of these, like, Mini Challenges and Maxi Challenges. And I’m like, “There’s no way I can do that.” Because that’s, like, physically impossible for me. Are we going to see a more accessible, adaptable Drag Race, without lowering the standards? I think the problem is: People think if you make something accessible, you lower the standards. And that is not the case.   

Brooke Lynn: Yeah, I would love. I'm all about as much inclusivity and visibility as we can possibly get on the show. I love it, I love it, I love it. I just think it makes everything better. It makes everyone happier, it makes people feel seen. Like that's really the goal of the show for me, is just for people to see themselves and feel included.

Same thing with 1 Queen 5 Queers. So yeah, I would love to see it. I think this happens all the time, where people see me as the host of Canada's Drag Race. So they – everything gets put on me. And everyone assumes that I: A. make all the decisions, which is not true. I have exactly 33.3% of the judging vote. Like, we all, me, Brad and Traci, all share it completely equally.

They assume I'm casting the show. I have absolutely nothing to do with casting. I find out who the queens are when I arrive on set to film day one. I don't come up with the challenges. I don't come up with the runways. I literally show up, put on my makeup, and do my job. So yeah, but, that's a huge misconception about, like, Drag Race.

And so whenever something goes wrong or somebody doesn't like a decision or anything, it's all put on me. Because I'm the figurehead and I’m the drag queen, which I understand. But yeah, I would love to see it. I have – I have no power there. I always make suggestions and sometimes they’re taken. Sometimes they’re not. But yeah, I'm sure there's a way. Like we would just have to get creative with it and figure out some different stuff we could do. But I would love to see it. I think it would be great. I think a lot of other people would really appreciate seeing it too.

Mary: I know that so many of us were so happy to see Willow be her entire self on TV and –

Brooke Lynn: And Yvie.

Mary: And Yvie! Me and so many of my other friends were like, “Finally we have some representation.”

Brooke Lynn: And two disabled winners.

Mary: Yes, and that was amazing for us. But particularly Willow. Because in the finale, when RuPaul asked Willow, “How are you feeling?” And Willow said, “Well that’s none of your business.” That was big for us. Because people are always intrusive, right? They feel like they can just ask questions. And there’s this misconception about chronic illness and what it’s like to be chronically ill. So, so many of us were just so happy to see Willow thrive and just be very vocal about, “This is who I am,” very unapologetically. And I think we would love to see more of that on TV. And I absolutely understand that you don’t have a lot of say of what goes on. You host the show. I completely get that, but we are hoping to see more representation in the future. 

Brooke Lynn: Mmmhmm.

Mary: And speaking of representation, let’s talk about 1 Queen 5 Queers. Last season, you had two disabled panelists on your show. Why was that important to you?

Brooke Lynn: It all comes back to representation, especially with a show like 1 Queen 5 Queers. And as you know, it was based off the original kind of a hit series in Canada called 1 Girl 5 Gays. I love that show. I grew up with it and there was nothing like it at the time. But as time marches on, and the world became more inclusive and there was different gender identities and the way people were presenting themselves and all the stuff that I never knew about growing up.

So I kind of looked at the show and I was like, “That was great for the time.” But it was also one girl and five mostly white guys, gay guys [laugh], sitting around talking about stuff. Which I get, at the time, was groundbreaking. But now we're in a different time. And I was like, “I want to do that show again, but I want to make it inclusive and get as much representation as we possibly can.”

Gay, bi, lesbian, transgender, non-binary. Like everything you could possibly think of. And there is a lot .[laugh] Especially nowadays, there's a lot of different identities. And so it's very, actually, difficult to kind of get all of that into one show. But that was the goal. So we started off with season one and it was great. And I remember, even season one, I was like, “I would love to get some people with disabilities in here,” because that's a huge part of it too.

And season one, we did our best. But season two, I was very adamant. And again, this is not like Drag Race. This is a show where I'm an executive producer. I'm the creator. So I have a say. I have a say in casting, I have a say in all of that stuff, which is lovely. So yeah, I was very adamant, season two, that I wanted to get some disability representation in there. And we did actually have someone on season one. Ivory suffers with chronic illness. So that was a little bit, but I wanted to go even further. And I remember: I think everyone was a little bit nervous about it too, because we had Jay on, who is one of our disabled panelists, who I believe has Cerebral Palsy.

And so there was some nervousness around that, not in terms of accessibility because we could get her in fine, but if she was going to be able to keep up and if like how she was going to be. And boy, were we proven wrong. Because she turned out to be, honestly, probably one of the stars of that whole season.

Like, she really was so funny, so quick, so sharp, so sassy, and we really had nothing to worry about. But yeah, there was this like, “Was she going to be able to keep up with the other panelists. Yadda, yadda, yadda yadda.” And she was absolutely fucking fantastic. And we were so, so happy to have her there. And not just me, but the crew, the cast, everyone.

And that goes for the cast too. They were all kind of shocked that she was just throwing it out and reading people and just doing all the things. And by the end we were all just completely enamored and in love with her.

Mary: You know, it amazes me – as a queer disabled woman of color, who has Cerebral Palsy as well; it amazes me how people think that we’re not gonna be able to keep up. Like, “Oh my gosh, we're putting them in this setting. What's going to happen?” And that just speaks to the lack of education about disability. 

Brooke Lynn: Yep.

Mary: You know, like, people just assume that there’s this umbrella disability, right? And, like, there are so many nuances to disability, particularly Cerebral Palsy. Like, Cerebral Palsy is one of the most nuanced disability that there is. Like, I have a friend who can walk, but he’s non-speaking. I am ambulatory, but I use a motorized chair. I have impaired speech. I have another friend who walks and does not have impaired speech. So, like CP is so nuanced. And the lack of education when it comes to disability is just mind-blowing to me. 

Brooke Lynn: Yeah. It really is. Like it just goes to show, even us we didn't like. “Is she going to be able to keep up? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And that's in 2022, you know? And we just didn't know. And we were … we were a little nervous, but like, “It'll be fine.” Like, “We'll get through it.”

But like, we really didn't know what to expect when it came down to it and came down to filming time. And now, like, I don't know if we're going to do a season three. We're trying to sell season one and season two to another network, like outside of Canada. And then that’ll kind of … we'll kind of see if we'll do a season three from there.

But if we do do a season three, which I very much hope we do, that's kind of now not an issue for us. And Jay is someone we will absolutely have back on the show as a recurring panelist, because she was so fantastic, and get more people with disabilities on as well.

Mary: And that would be something I would love to see. Obviously, I’m in the US, so I can’t see the show, which is disappointing.

Brooke Lynn: I know. 

Mary: Like I said, as a disabled queer woman of color. Like, I would’ve loved to see that. Because one of the biggest taboo issues is disability and sex, and disability and sexuality. And it’s like: “Please don’t assume that every disabled person that you meet is straight. Like, don’t make that assumption that we’re all straight or that we’re not non-binary.” There are so many of us who are non-binary, who are queer, who have so many different identities. 

Brooke Lynn: Mmmhmm.

Mary: And I’m going to say this. What you did on your show is groundbreaking. Now whether it should be groundbreaking is another story. But it was. Like, the day I saw that I was just so thrilled because, like, wow. Like, I even commented to you on Instagram. I was like, “Thank you so much for this disabled representation.” Because it meant that much to not just me, but my entire community. 

And I think when we talk about lack of accessibility, I want to ask you because you do a lot of gigs and everything. Maybe you don’t know the answer to this. And that’s fine, but so many of us want to go to drag shows. But they’re not accessible. 

Brooke Lynn: Mmhmmm.

Mary: They’re not accessible. What will it take for venue owners, do you think? And again, you’re just a performer and I know that. But what do you think it would take for venue owners to take into consideration disabled audience members who want to attend your shows?

Brooke Lynn: I think it'll take … Honestly, nothing ever gets changed, really, unless people speak up about it. So I think it'll just take more people speaking up about it, more people saying shit, and more like … It's like that thing: “People only listen when you yell.” You know? It's very true. Like if you're nice, you're nice, you’re nice, people won't take you seriously. The minute you raise your voice and the minute you get serious, then people are like, “Oh.”

So, I think that's probably, unfortunately, what it will take. But yeah, no, you're right. I mean, a lot of venues are not wheelchair accessible or accessible for people with disabilities. And then, you're in a bar and people don't know how to act a lot of the times. And they're sloppy, and they're drunk, and they're falling all over you. And it's just a lot to deal with.

So yeah, I think it's just more people talking about it and getting involved.

Mary: The problem with yelling as a disabled person is: People have this idea that we are just angry disabled people, right? 

Brooke Lynn: Yeah. 

Mary: Like, I’m often told that I should not be so vocal about things, because then I come off as the angry disabled woman of color. And then people don't want to listen to what I’m saying. So, there’s that, where, yes this something we’ve talked about. There are disabled drag artists I follow that talk about that as well – the lack of accessibility to perform. Also, Pride. What is your thought about, like, Pride not being accessible? Because I feel like we talk about Pride so much, but then the disabled community is often left out of Pride events.

Brooke: Well, I mean, it's the same thing, really. Like, everyone should be able to do everything, as much as possible. So, I mean, I have been to Pride events that were wheelchair accessible. I think honestly, just unfortunately, with Pride and with bars and anything, it comes down to money. And it comes down to: People are looking at the disabled community like, “Okay.” It's kind of a niche thing for them, I would say.

And they're like, “Are we willing to spend money to put a ramp in or spend money to do all this stuff for this very small group of people compared to the rest of our clientele who are coming in the bar? So I think it comes down to people just not wanting to spend the money because they don't think it's worth it, which I think is kind of gross.

But it's tough to really call yourself a safe space or an inclusive space when you're not including literally a group of people.

Mary: Do you think we’ll see virtual events come back? Because that was something that so many of us talked about at the beginning of the pandemic, like all of these drag shows being online. Like, do you think that is something that we will see make a comeback.? I know how many drag artists say, “I hate it so much! I hate it!”

Brooke Lynn: [laugh]

Mary: “I couldn’t stand it.” And like, so many of us were like, “Okay, but you hate it. But that meant that we could actually see a drag show.”

Brooke Lynn: Yeah.

Mary: You know?

Brooke Lynn: No, totally. I mean, I – [laugh] I agree with that. It was the worst. [laugh] Like we hated it. But yeah, again, I understand where you're coming from where you could actually be involved and be included in something. But yeah, I don't know if they'll make a comeback per se, but I think maybe having online shows for disabled folks would be a great idea, so that they can be included in the party and all that stuff.

But in terms of making a comeback, I really sincerely hope not. [laugh] There’s nothing more depressing than dancing around in your living room [laugh] and having no one there [laugh]. 

Mary: Listen, you’re talking to someone who has not left her house in almost three years for other than medical appointments. So, yeah, let’s talk about being depressing. [laugh]

Brooke Lynn: Totally.

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I get that, but I think there’s such a disconnect between, like, performance art and the disabled community.

Brooke Lynn: Uh huh. 

Mary: And I wish that there was more I got but yeah I think there should be like performance art and the disabled community. And I wish that there was more understanding between the two, because…

Brooke Lynn: Yeah.

Mary: I would love to see, you know, like a drag show virtually, or whatever it might be. And I understand why it’s not something you would want to do. But again, as someone who has been in this apartment for almost three years now? Yeah, I –

Brooke Lynn: Yeah.

Mary: [laugh]

Brooke Lynn: I totally get that and I would do one if it's a drag show specifically for disabled folks. Like it's an online thing like that. Sure. But like, I don't want to go back to just doing that. [laugh] If that makes sense. When we were just all stuck inside and I was unable to do anything else, you know? But like, if it's once in a while, sure. And if I understand, it's for people who need this and it's just kind of like their only option really, then sure. But if it's like just an online drag show for the sake of having it on my drag show, I’m good. [laugh]

Mary: And that's why last year I created Pride Our Way, which was a virtual Pride event. And we had a Pride weekend. And people, like, submitted their art. And we had disabled drag artists perform. And it was like inclusive drag, an inclusive Pride event. 

Brooke Lynn: I love that. 

Mary: Well, you actually did a Cameo for it, so let me thank you publicly for the Cameo that you did for Pride Our Way. It went over very well and was very appreciated. So thank you for that.

Brooke Lynn: Of course, my pleasure.

Mary: As we wrap up, do you have any thoughts? Is there anything you want to say to the disabled LGBTQIA+ community? Is there anything you want to say to them or just anything you want to say to your fellow drag performers. And I know we have a request, and I know this is drag culture, but to stop using ableist terms like dumb, the r-word, stupid, all of that. Because that is insulting to those of us who are disabled. 

Brooke Lynn: Mmmhmm.

Mary: So we would love to see those terms phase out. And I‘m sure that would take a long time, and that may never happen. But do you have any final thoughts that you would like to share with the audience? 

Brooke Lynn: Yeah, like I agree definitely with like the r-word and just ableist terms like that. Like, I haven't heard anybody say the r-word in a very long time [laugh], which I think is great, and some other words as well. So yeah, I think the thing I'd like to say to my fellow drag performers is like, we just have to be reminded that we are here with an enormous amount of privilege and it's nice to be reminded of that every once in a while, and kind of check our privileges.

And remember, there are people who have it off a lot worse than us in this world and who do not have the same freedoms, literally, that we do. And like the freedom to go to a bar and watch a drag show and stuff like that. So any kind of chance we can get to help the disabled community, I think we should. And help them feel more included, help material wanted, help them feel seen. I think that's really important.

Mary: Brooke, I want to thank you so, so much for taking time out of your schedule today to do this interview with me. It was an absolute honor. 

Brooke Lynn: Aw, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I had a great time.

[music playing while Mary speaks] Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Politics of Disability Podcast. As you navigate your journey, remember: disability is political; disability is messy; disability is not palatable--nor does it have to be.

[music playing]