Conversation Series: Black Women Thought Leaders - The Intersection of Politics, Social Justice, and Faith - Part 2

In celebration of both Black History Month in February and Women's History Month in March, Mary put together this conversation series.

During the second interview of the series, Mary continues her conversation with Stacey Abrams' former press secretary, Jaylen Black. The two discuss advocacy, voting rights, lack of access to basic needs such as food and shelter, the intersection of faith and politics and Jaylen's new podcast.

Jaylen Black is a communications professional who has spoken on behalf of some of the most powerful individuals in Georgia. Her previous roles include Director of Surrogate Communications for Reverend Warnock’s runoff election, Press Secretary and Spokesperson for Stacey Abrams for Governor 2022 race, and Georgia Press Secretary for Senator Reverend Warnock’s federal office. She has experience handling crisis Communications and plethora of political issues. 

You can follow Jaylen on social media here and here.

The Politics of Disability was named Best Interview Podcast at the Astoria Film Festival in both October 2022 and again in June 2023.

Transcript

[music playing as Mary: speaks]

Mary: Hello everyone and welcome to season 2 of the award-winning podcast The Politics of Disability. 

My name is Mary Fashik. I am your host and founder of the Disability Justice movement Upgrade Accessibility. We’re still navigating that bumpy road, but there are lots of potholes along the way. 

You’ll want to make sure you’re buckled up really tight. 

All set? Here we go. 

[music playing]

Mary: I’ll talk about how racism and ableism are tied together and I had this white man say to me, “Why are you always bringing race into this? It has nothing to do with race.” Talk to me about that statement because I’m sure you’ve heard that statement so much. “Why do you always bring race into this?”

Jaylen: Yeah, that is something I hear often. So here's the thing. I'm definitely not one of the people that says, “Oh, this is all because of racism.” But let's be clear. Let's just talk about the southern region of the United States that we're in. The entire infrastructure of southern politics and southern government is off of the oppression of people.

Like… that is how we formed our government. People wonder why we haven't had not just a woman, no Black woman, woman, a non-white man as governor in our country. Because think about what it takes to be governor in a state. They made it like this for a reason to keep a power dynamic. So, you can't say things just aren't about race because it might not be as plain and clear as like, very in-your-face, like, yeah, you might not be water hosing down people because they're trying to vote.

That might not be happening anymore, but it takes new forms. You talk a lot about voting rights. You talk a lot about voting rights within the disability community. Every time I walk into a polling location and there is not a ramp and they don't have the proper PPE equipment, like if people don't have masks, I think about the disabled community because I'm like, how are they going to come in here and vote safely without risking their lives?

And so, it's not as black and white as it might seem to people. I think something that is also really interesting on that point is that sometimes you can't say what is or what is not, because when you like, go into the deeply rooted issues, like to just give you an example: healthcare. The healthcare disparities in South, but we can narrow it down to Georgia are just something that we all should be afraid of.

Like Georgia has one of the worst health outcomes in the country. As you know, our governor has refused to expand Medicaid, leaving over half a million people without coverage, something he could do with the stroke of a pen. Healthcare disproportionately impacts communities of color, Black communities and disabled communities. If you don't have access to what you need and that is just what kind of blew me about the pandemic, is people are like, “Oh my God, people didn't know they have preexisting conditions?”

No, because people haven't seen doctors in five years. Ten years because they don't have access. They didn't have that privilege of having health insurance in this country. And these are people, despite what you know, some on the right might think, it's like these are working people, people who are working above and beyond 40 hours a week. But their jobs don't have that sort of coverage.

That is what we talk about in a coverage gap. But you say everything's not about race. You wonder why. Oh, why does that impact so many communities of color? Why do so many communities of color have this worse health outcomes? Look at our communities. We're in food deserts. We have my hometown where I grew up in Stone Mountain, Georgia.

It wasn't always food deserts. Stone Mountain used to be all white area. Now it is the opposite. It's pretty racially diverse now, but it's still overwhelmingly Black and the closest things to eat are a McDonald's, a Popeyes and a wing place, you know? And then even you say, okay, go to the grocery store, just cook. Our grocery store, the Kroger on that side of town versus like I go to like a northern more white part of town. They don't even sell the same things. The produce is completely lacking. You don't have any…no vegan, all these options, they don't have them.

So you wonder like slowly but surely. And then you talk about, “Oh, well, just get your kids active like they should just be playing outside. Da da da da.” Do you know what happens to working people who don't have to literally work multiple jobs, work long hours?

They're not able to have the privilege and the access to have their kids to be active, unfortunately. So you had to rely on good afterschool programs and you usually don't have really good ones. And if you're in certain parts of the county. So again, without mentioning Black, white, Asian, like this is a lot of it is about race.

You look at where resources are flowing in our country is it is about race, you know, and there is nothing wrong with that. I think something I found a lot of my friends who are white, there's this idea that they just feel bad about it, like, oh, I just you know, I just I hate that. Like, I hate my people.

I hate being white. I say, you know, no one's asking you to hate yourself. I actually don't want you to do that at all. It's just acknowledging that these are the systems in place and you have to learn and unlearn them. And I tell people the biggest advocacy and this is, you know, whether you're talking about racially, whether you're talking about the disabled community or etc., is you have to advocate when people are not around, like you can't just come on a podcast and say these things.

And then like I have a family member who's, you know, not… not even fully making fun of, but just saying very insensitive things towards someone that we saw with the disability. And I don't check them that I'm a part of the problem and that's just what you have to do. We all have that aunt, that grandparent, whatever, that they said something that was very insensitive.

And sometimes when you are older, you feel like, you know what, this is what I think. What are you going to tell me? Like respect me, da da da. You can have respect for somebody, but understand that they also have areas of learning and growing. And we have to, you know, be very intentional about addressing those issues. So and again, back to marginalized groups, like I say, it really is a comradery. It has to be. 

Like America has a long and dark history of taking any sort of semblance that is not, you know, you're cisgender, white male, you know, upper middle class. If you're not in that by any means that you have areas of disenfranchisement and we all have to advocate for each other.

So I want to go back to a couple things you said and feel free to chime in as I do. You talk about voting polls and like, accessibility. And thanks to you, there was an article that I was featured in Savannah Morning News talking about the lack of accessibility when it comes to voting. And I talk about having to go in the back door to access the polling place. Jaylen, listen to this. So I posted about this on LinkedIn, right?

And I talked about how dehumanizing it was to ask a brown disabled woman to go in the back door, just so I can access my right to vote. And this white disabled woman replied to me and said, “I think that’s making a big deal for nothing. I just am happy I can get in the building.”

Jaylen: No because if we're just happy by what people give us, then things won't change. It's 2022. You're pushing people through the back door. When people sat on the back of busses, when people could not go to certain restaurants. To vote? Absolutely not. And that that mindset of old like, well, it's not so great, but it's better than what we had.

No, we need to be expecting more from our leaders. We need to be expecting more from people that represent you in any form or fashion because that's just unacceptable.

Mary: I, I was like…I was floored that this white disabled woman had the nerve. But why am I surprised? Because again, privilege. “Oh, you should be thankful that you can get…”

No, I'm not thankful that I had to go in the back door to vote. Like I'm just not thankful for that.

Jaylen: And this is why, Mary, your work is so important because when you put social pressure, particularly on companies, then they respond. The moment people go to, you know, the Twitter, the Instagram, podcasts, Tik Tok and say, “this is what happened to me today”. They respond a lot quicker that, oh my God. Like, this is you really have to raise your voice.

And then like if your voice is not being raised, elevate others like this bad thing happened. And in a similar way, like I've been hit with, “Okay, well, things aren't as bad as they used to be.”  I said, “So is that excusable for them not being where they should be?” Because if we truly like… I'll say this and this is something that gets lost in like Democratic politics, I am proud to live in this country, right?

I am. It is certainly imperfect, but because I love living here, I want to make it better. And I think that is lost by, “oh, you're not patriotic.” No, no. Patriotism is actually wanting better for a place that you love. So saying that to say, if you want better, you have to demand for better. And even if you're not always in the spotlight, it's like, unfortunately, everybody doesn't have the opportunity to talk about this on a podcast or have the opportunity, you know, to raise their voice.

Like I think a lot, and I've particularly been thinking more about our communities that don't have a home, like people living on the streets, like as we just experienced some of the coldest days that we just experienced in Georgia. I'm like, who is advocating for them? They don't have phones, you know, oftentimes to be able to talk about, hey, like I tried to go into a warming center, it was packed like, hey, I you know, I'm trying to do this this or I'm trying to, you know, hold this job, but I don't have a clean pair of clothes.

Like, if you don't raise the voice of others sometimes, then we're just going to always be okay with the status quo.

Mary: Let me tell you about this argument, I got into with a white disabled advocate the year before last because we are now in 2023, because I'm not sure we know, but they were trying to restructure SSI and give us quote unquote more, rights. And I went on social media, and I said, this is not good enough.

We are not, we should not be happy about crumbs. We are entitled to our whole damn loaf, not getting crumbs. Why are we happy that the government is going to tell us, oh, instead of $2,000 savings. now you can have $10,000. That is nothing when a wheelchair costs, a motorized wheelchair costs $28,000 and more and you’re telling me all I can have is $10,000? And then you’re telling me instead of living below the poverty line, I can now live AT the poverty line and I'm supposed to be happy and grateful for that? 

And I got so much pushback. And this white disabled advocate, went on their platform and said that I was spitting in the face of disabled advocates that came before us and that we should be thankful for all the work they’ve done, and I’m like, no. Of course you are white, and you have privilege, so you think this is ok. A lot of this probably won’t even affect you, but you’re not thinking about those who are marginalized and multi-marginalized, who, this is not going to be any better for us. 

Jaylen: Yeah, I mean and Mary you make me think of a point to that I don't know if we hit on is classism. Like, you… Having money in this country is a privilege, like it is. We live in a capitalistic society. Unfortunately. That, it is about like when you have money, you're able to access more things. Something we spoke about last fall is you have to have certain cares that the only doctor for is in Atlanta.

How can I get to Atlanta? You know, if I need like a certain car, you know, and Leader Abrams actually said this the best when we were just talking about, you know, all these issues and, you know, from housing to health care to, you know, environmental issues,  disabled issues like, you know, there's a lot of mounting issues that she says like a lot of people just kind of have this poverty of thinking that we don't think things can get any better.

And that's just we can't be complacent in that mindset because that's saying, oh, well, sure. I mean, like y'all have like I mean, the ADA, you're right, you know, like, oh, places are accessible. And we know that has loopholes. We know like, that does not have the ability to, it's not lived out across the board and it's not established equitably across everything.

So, we have to understand that if we ever want things to be better, we have to demand it, and we have to demand it constantly. Advocacy is not something that you can just take a break from like or, you know, great, we passed this bill. Okay, now is implementation. Okay, If that implementation isn't working, now we have to go grassroots. Oh if grassroots isn't as effective. Okay? We need to go to our local electives. If local electives aren’t then we need to go above them. You know, a lot of times it can be exhausting. The work that we do is like, gah like, is anything changing? But that is the worst thing we can do. When we say, “well, things are better than what they were.”

That's not saying a lot for some things in America, unfortunately. So, you know, you said it very well, but the privilege that you take advantage of, we have to be mindful of how the things that we say in our complacency is impacting others because everybody, you know, isn't as fortunate, so.

Mary: You're, you’re absolutely right. And you might, you know, someone said to me, “Mary, when do you take a break?” And I said, no, you don’t understand, I don't. Because the minute I stop advocating, they're going to take something away from me.

Jaylen: Yep, and it’s, it’s tough, right? People ask - people ask me, they're like, you know… I mean, I've been doing it in like electoral politics, but it's just working with so many things. And I'm just, and sometimes to be very, you know honest, because I think you have a great podcast and I'll share this like, it gets very exhausting. Like just feeling like, okay, we lost the governor's race.

Like, like he has to act on these things that we can't wait or, you know, we might have won this but didn't win that. Like, it's not always about getting someone in office, but it's about, okay, if they're in office, what are they actually going to do? Like, it does not stop because Stacey Abrams lost the election. It is putting pressure on the people that did win that you represent me, whether I like it or not, you represent me.

My tax dollars in some form or fashion go to the decisions that you make. You have a voice in that. And I will say to everybody listening to this, also, just advocating for certain things is: do find some time for yourself too, you know, like it is never, this work is never going to stop. But we have to make sure we are our best and our most capable selves, that making sure we're resting. 

Like, you know, oftentimes it's like in a state that the health care system is already rocky? Make sure you take care of yourself the best you can because this work is never going to stop. You know, 20 years from now I'm hoping we make a lot of strides on a lot of things. But Mary, we could be having this conversation be like, you know, “well, things are better”. No, we won't be saying that because we're going to be saying this is better, but! We could be better. So, you know, it is something it's an ongoing fight, but it's definitely a fight worth while.

Mary: It's absolutely an ongoing fight. You talk about health care of a wide scope, health care and something I said to you when I met you for the first time, and something I’m very adamant about is, Georgia is killing me. Slowly or quickly, I am dying in this state. Because of the lack of healthcare.

And I know people say, well, you go to doctors. Yes, I do. But the level of care I receive is not even sub par, it is below subpar. I currently do not have a rheumatologist. Rheumatologists deal with my illness, I have a list of chronic illnesses. I am losing weight every day, and I don't know why. And I will not go back to the rheumatologist that almost killed me.

And before he almost killed me, he looked me in the eye, and said to me, which is we are from opposing places in the Middle East, he looked at me and said, “Oh, haha I do not like you.”

Jaylen: Hm? Ridiculous, just… 

Mary: So yeah,there’s a whole thing about healthcare in this state. Georgia is killing me and… All I want to do is make sure I leave a legacy behind for when this state does kill me. And I talk about it because when I am no longer here, I want the people who knew me and knew my work to say, “Mary spent years talking about this.” So I talk about it a lot, because when it does happen I want you all to be like, “she told you, she talked about it”. And this is why I’m talking as much as I can. 

And then you talk about parents having to work, and went, “Oh, get your kids active”. There are children in my apartment complex, their parents work long hours, what happens? They play in the street, and they play in front of cars. And I have been saying - yeah, something is going to happen to one of these children. Because they play in the street in the dark. When cars cannot see them, something is going to happen. And again, I’m documenting this because I have, was talking about this for over a year now, and nothing has been done. And, but, capitalism is to blame. Because parents have to work long hours to afford this rent. The rent is ridiculous. And how can two parent homes, let alone one parent homes, afford this rent without having to work long hours?

Jaylen: You can't. You can't really even afford it with the long hours is the sad part. And, you brought up so many good points. But one thing I want to talk about is kind of like, this idea that sometimes things have to happen for people to pay attention to them. Like those kids playing in the street, it’s unfortunate because it's like, people have been saying this. This would happen.

You know? Like, I think about, there's not a lot of sidewalks in a lot of communities. So you have kids who don't you know, they're not driving, they're not able to get around. They can't call an Uber, you know, that costs money, that everybody's not able to do that. So they're walking up the street in the grass, you know, and if people aren't paying attention for a second you can hit them. 

There's just so many things that I'm just like, it's almost like things have to be so heinous sometimes for people to, right there in Brunswick, Ahmaud Arbery. Like, is that what it took to have, you know, hate crimes legislation in Georgia? For someone in broad daylight to be running and be shot in the back. Like it is just remarkably heinous, what it takes to get people's attention sometimes.

And, and what you said earlier, Mary, I mean, I wholeheartedly believe, like your words, you've inspired me. This is why I'm just grateful for the work that you do. And I share it with so many people. The story that we, you know, landed and just you're like the voice of a lot of people that can’t have this platform to do this.

And it's also, it makes people, their learning process way easier, like, “Oh, I don't know anybody with a disability”, you know, listen to a podcast. If you can't, like, understand that, like it's just not always about, you know, your lived experiences. But there's a lot of reasons why we don't have, you know, that full understanding because, you know, sometimes we haven't done the work to, to really understand it.

And the last thing I'll say on this point, is that we have to understand, I kind of said this earlier but, it can be better, period. It can be. You look at other countries, I love America, but you look at other countries where healthcare is available. Everyone has health care. You're born into a country, you have health care, or you look into other countries where they work four days out of the week because, or they have unlimited time off like you're sick, you're off.

Like, there's people that are working sick because they don't have time to take off. You can't afford to live and be sick like it is, is just one of the worst, you know, cases and a lot of things in America and particularly in Georgia. Like we love this state, but it is killing a lot of people. If not quickly, quickly as in a gun, as in gun violence skyrocketing, being the number one killer of kids in our state, or slowly as in not having resources to the health care providers that you actually need. Like not having the ability to have fresh fruits and vegetables in your home, not having the ability to afford a roof over your head. So you end up in the street and you end up, you know, in these circumstances.

 I tell people sometimes I do feel like I'm a wrong decision away from being on the streets myself, because that's just how expensive things are. And that's, you can be that close to having your entire life changed. And I think to like, conclude all of this, if we understand as people on this earth, you know, this is we can take the faith out of it, you know, I know everybody you know, faith is not everyone's cup of tea, but let's just say we are people on this earth. Once we realize we are intrinsically tied to each other, as in something can happen and you’re, you now could be a member of the disabled communities. Or something could happen, and now you are also a member of the homeless population.

Or something could happen and now you're incarcerated and you realize that our prison systems are modern day slavery in this state, or something could happen and I am now out of everything. Once we realize we are only a small step away from each other, we can have more humanity for one another and understand that I might have it better than somebody else, but knowing that that person doesn't have it well, then we’re not doing our best as people.

Mary: So you answered this, but what drives your passion, and talk about your podcast and why you started your podcast?

Jaylen: Yes. So for context, I recently launched a teaser of my podcast. It will be coming this year, the Black Brief, where you can stream on all your favorite podcast places, really excited about it. The origins of the podcast is, really tied to my passion. So for the past couple of years, I've had the tremendous honor of traveling around the state of Georgia with Senator Warnock and Stacey Abrams.

 It is definitely something. Sometimes I pinch myself. I'm like, That was really my life. You know, and, you know, travel around in different ways. So with Senator Warnock, it was on the federal side. So in his Senate capacity, the senator of the state walking into places. So I've been into rooms that I've seen the highest of the highest power in the state.

Like, I realize, you know, whether you're black, white, queer, disabled, when you're the senator of a state, people roll out the red carpet because they know the power of, you know, the money that comes from the federal government, the policy that comes from the federal government. But, I also have seen I, with Stacey Abrams, I've seen areas like Talbotton Georgia. Like Waycross Georgia, Brunswick Georgia, where it is polar opposite. That there are people in the state that, to give you a very clear visualization of this.

A travel that really stuck out to me was being in Talbotton Georgia on this past campaign cycle with Stacey Abrams. And we were in front of a Piggly Wiggly grocery store that was their only grocery store there, and it was closed. So I'm thinking this is, this is Talbotton Georgia. So this is about hour, hour and a half away from Atlanta.

There is no public transportation. We were in front of the Piggly Wiggly that was closed and a gas station. So I was talking to people before the event and they were just, you know, frustrated that the grocery store had been closed. You know, after having very few things in there, they just decided to shut the doors.

Where do you go for food? You know, And people were going to the gas station, you know, to get eggs, you know, the gas station to get chips. Where salad is very old, the lunchmeat, that was just the best that they had. And it's just like, it brings me to what made me do this podcast. I realized I was having similar conversations with so many different people in my life. And I was like, you know, more than what we want to let on we all talk about a lot of the same things. And recently with a lot of people, we talk a lot about this financial hardship. And I remind people I was like, we are in one of the worst financial and economic times of our lifetime. Things are more expensive now than they've ever been, and we're creeping on a recession.

So, is not having money and not having access to these things like, it makes people a lot more insecure. Like I want to be able to do this, but I can't, you know, I wish I had time to do this, but I have to pick up an extra shift. Or, I got to DoorDash in between my jobs because I have to make, I have to make rent. You know?

So my podcast is focusing on just that. Politics, of course, bringing in the every day happenings of our state, local and national government, but breaking it down in a brief way. So that's the name, the Black Brief. The black, because my last name is Black, I'm black, but brief because attention spans aren't that long. I know mine isn't.

So we won't be a very long podcast, but we're going to hit on politics, problems of the day, and pop culture and how they kind of intrinsically relate. And I'm happy because, you know, everyday it'll be something different. Whatever is happening in the world, we'll be talking about it. And it's also in the lens of my shared experience.

Like I mentioned, I'm a Gen Z woman, black, in the South. And that is, these lenses are the way I view the world. But also I'm looking forward to bringing people on, as Mary does on her wonderful podcast and trying to learn a lot from her and figure out how to do it and be hopefully nearly half as good as her.

So yeah, just really excited to like, explore this in different sectors. I plan on bringing in people for health care, bring in people that work in housing, bringing in people that, you know, they don't have to have the expertise, but bringing in different lenses because again, I'm understanding that I have my own lens and I have my way of thinking of things, but I'm not always right and I don't always understand everybody's perspective.

So bringing in people from the disability community like understanding like how we can collectively work on issues, but just talking about them too, I think, you know, something that I found comfort in is just talking about it and then moving on it, but understanding like, Oh my God, I didn't know this person also related to this thing. So yeah, I'm really excited for it.

Mary: I'm so excited Jaylen is amazing, I cannot sing her praises enough. She’s charismatic and I know that your podcast is going to be, just, yeah it’s going to be great and so so excited. And we're going to link to her podcast in the show notes so you can go over there and look into her podcast after you listen to this one. 

Jaylen, as we wrap up, would you have any, would you like to share your final thoughts?

Jaylen: Absolutely. Well, first I want to say thank you for having me. Thank you to Upgrade Accessibility, the possibility of just the work that you all are doing. I, you know, even if there's something I learned with even trying to land stories on like disability activism and the, the hardships of disability people in this state, you know, some people didn't even want to write about it.

And so I can't imagine living it, every day of… It's just something I can't express enough, the work that you're doing. And, you know, I don't know what the future holds for me, but I can tell you who holds it and the work that I will continue to be doing. I mean, it's the work that we talked about today because our issues, you know, they're not going to stop.

There's always going to be people and things that we need to be advocating for. So I'll be there right with it. So I'm looking forward to staying connected with you all listening. If you all wanted to follow my professional journey, you can follow my Twitter. It is at Jaylen j a y l e n with an extra n, black like the color.

So, looking forward to connecting.

Mary: And that will also be in the show notes. And I have to laugh because everyone says “you all” and I’m like, no there is no “you all”, I am a one woman show. I am the founder of Upgrade Accessibility, I am the one who created the podcast. I’m a one woman show. Other than the podcast, I have a wonderful editor and producer who helps make sure that we put out the best quality podcast.

But all of my advocacy, all of Upgrade Accessibility, is me. One woman show. And I feel like Jaylen that’s going to be you, you’re going to be a one woman show.

Jaylen: I always have the support of, you know, people, so I definitely have to include my community. So. But yeah, you're. You're incredible Mary.

Mary: Thank you so much, and thank you for joining me today.

Jaylen: Thank you.

[music playing while Mary speaks] Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Politics of Disability Podcast. As you navigate your journey, remember: disability is political; disability is messy; disability is not palatable--nor does it have to be.

[music playing]