Conversation Series: Black Women Thought Leaders - Living at the Intersection of Being Black and Disabled

In celebration of both Black History Month in February and Women's History Month in March, Mary put together this conversation series.

During the final interview of the series, Mary talks with Keri Gray of the Keri Gray Group and the NAMED Advocates.

The two discuss the gap between social justice and Disability Justice, how to close the gap, Black Disabled Lives Matter, and what it's like to live at the intersection of being Black and disabled.

Keri Gray is a cancer survivor, entrepreneur, speaker, and facilitator. She is the CEO of the Keri Gray Consulting Group, LLC, where they strive to create professional communities of understanding through disability and racial justice education. She is also founder of the National Alliance of Melanin Disabled Advocates, which creates spaces for disabled leaders of color and BIPOC allies to gather, learn, connect, and grow around racial and disability justice. Keri’s work has been featured in Teen Vogue, the New York Times, People Magazine, Time Magazine, PBS NewsHour, Madamenoire, and the Diet Coke campaign #Unlabeled. 

You can follow Keri on social media here and NAMED Advocates here.

The Politics of Disability was named Best Interview Podcast at the Astoria Film Festival in both October 2022 and again in June 2023.

Transcript

[music playing as Mary speaks]

Mary: Hello everyone and welcome to season 2 of the award-winning podcast, The Politics of Disability. 

My name is Mary Fashik. I am your host and founder of the Disability Justice movement Upgrade Accessibility. We’re still navigating that bumpy road, but there are lots of potholes along the way. 

You’ll want to make sure you’re buckled up really tight. 

All set? Here we go. 

[music playing]

Mary: Hello and thank you so much for joining me today. Will you please introduce yourself to the audience?

Keri: Yes. Well, good afternoon. Good morning. Depending on where you're at in the world. [laughs] My name is Keri Gray. I am the founder of a consulting agency called the Keri Gray Consulting Group, and an educational hub called the National Alliance of Melanin Disabled Advocates. We go by the NAMED Advocates.

I personally identify as a Black disabled woman. I'm a Black feminist.

I stay grounded in principles around Disability Justice. And I'm really grateful and thankful through my work I'm able to partner with a number of groups, and make it really easy for folks to talk about disability and really allow us to learn skills and tools around how we can embed these principles across our advocacy, across our movement, across our workplace.

So, I'm looking forward to chatting with you today about those principles and about how we can advance our movement.

Mary: I want to thank you so much for joining me. I think it's such an important conversation that we are going to have. And you mentioned social justice, Disability Justice. I’ve noticed in my own advocacy, that there is a disconnect between social justice and Disability Justice. So, a lot of times when I see Black advocates and they talk about Black Lives Matter, they don't necessarily say Black Disabled Lives Matter. Or when we talk about any social justice issue the disabled and chronically ill community is consistently left out. 

Why do you believe that, because you have a foot in both worlds, right? Why do you believe that there is such a disconnect between social justice and Disability Justice?

Keri: Yeah. You know, I got my disabilities when I was eight years old. I’m a cancer survivor. I got diagnosed with osteosarcoma bone cancer, went through chemotherapy, ended up getting the amputation on my right leg. And all of this happened when I was in elementary school. But I wasn't introduced to disability, the models, the culture, the history, anything about disability inclusion until I was 20 years old.

And the only reason I got introduced to the concepts around Disability Justice and inclusion was because I got accepted into an internship program through the American Association of People with Disabilities. And I was in Washington, D.C. I was working and living my best life. [laughs]

But what was important about that program was that they were really intentional about teaching us about disability history, culture, making sure that we were connected to mentors who looked and sounded like us. Like, that was mind blowing to me. Because I had went my whole life, and I was a proud Black woman. I love who I am. I advocate for the issues surrounding Black and brown communities and women and all of these different things. But I had never once even thought about the idea of openly identifying as disabled or advocating for our people.

So, I didn't know that we had a community, or what Disability Justice was prior to that internship program. So, when I think about the issues that exist across the social justice movement, this exclusion that you're referring to, I definitely understand because a lot of times we're still not talking about disability at all. We're not teaching it. People are just completely unaware.

I think that there's two solutions that we need to be focused on. And when we think about the erasure of disability, when we think about the exclusion of disability and our larger social justice movement. 

One, we need more storytelling, right? Like the fact that I was an eight-year-old girl from the South side of Longview, Texas, and all of a sudden I have a whole new reality of having to navigate the South Side, having to navigate the South, having to navigate all of these different things as a Black disabled girl. And like, to not have the mentorship then, to not have the representation of other people who are openly discussing this, who are showing me what it means to advocate for myself, who are stripping away any opportunities that shame will attempt to come up and creep in and snatch us. You know, like we need the story telling, we need folks who are over here making sure that folks are getting exposure. 

The second thing I think that we need is we need more organizations and leaders to make an active decision to include Disability Justice. Right? Because, you know, on one hand, we definitely have the issue with the lack of awareness. But on another hand, there are people at this point who have heard of Disability Justice, who have seen the disparities that are going on, who have seen within their teams, their employees, their, their networks, their members, their constituents, whatever the case may be, you've seen disability. And yet it's still minimized, not discussed, prioritized in any type of way.

So that's a different type of issue that's going on, right? That's someone who's not operating out of principle that all people matter, all BIPOC folks matter, all Black folks matter. And so that's when it's important that we are making an active decision to be inclusive of Disability Justice. And that means going through that process of what I went through as a person, of saying, “Well, what is the history? What is the culture? What are the issues? And how do we ensure that this is weaved in the inner workings of all the things that we do?”

So there's definitely issues there to discuss, but we got some… some… some solutions that I believe that we can be a part of.

Mary: I think you’re absolutely right. And I appreciate the way you laid out what the issues are, and how we can address these issues. I think it was very clear and very concise. I have a friend of mine, who is a young Black, disabled man, who is an advocate, and when I interviewed him he said to me, “Mary, you cannot be Black and. So you cannot be Black and disabled.”

Keri: Mmhmm.

Mary: Or Black and queer. 

Keri: Mmhmm.

Mary: In your opinion, as a Black woman, how is disability viewed within the Black community, and why do you believe that is the case?

Keri: Yeah, yeah. There's levels to that. [laughs] For sure. I definitely understand where he's coming from. You know, one thing I think that's important to know is that disability prevalence is highest in communities of color. Right? So, in the United States, one in four Black people have some sort of disability. We grew up seeing disabilities in our households, in our families and our community centers.

Cancer is prevalent in our community. Diabetes is prevalent in our community. Asthma, fibroids, I mean, you name it. And I want to name that intentionally, because, you know, sometimes folks don't even always see these things as disabilities? Right? Like my twin brother, he got asthma. And we don't necessarily call that disabled within our community, but these are protected under the ADA.

So, I'm saying all of that to say that, you know, we grew up seeing these realities and these experiences and people with disabilities are incredibly prevalent within our communities. And we're protective of that. I think that we can be fiercely protective of our community because of the amount of violence that we have seen, Black people have experienced.

So, I say that, one, I think about a study that was done by the Center for American Progress. And in this study, they found that 50% of people killed by law officers are disabled. And more than half of disabled African Americans have been arrested by the time they are 28, double the risk in comparison to white disabled counterparts. Like the disparities that exist and living at the intersection of being Black and disabled? The consequences behind that have been fatal for us.

So, it's hard to approach, I think, the subject of disability at times. Not even to mention the medical violence that our community has experienced. I think of the Tuskegee experiment, that happened over decades. This was an experiment where they got together a group of 400 Black people, predominantly Black men, and infected them with syphilis. And then about 100 people died of them experimenting on our bodies. Right? And we see these types of things happen over and over again, including with the disparities that happen in COVID. 

So, I think it can be challenging for us to openly discuss, disclose and talk about disability when there's just been so much violence that has happened towards our community and those intersections. I think that's why I am incredibly grateful for the Black Disabled Lives Matter movement.

So, at this point in time, I'm hoping that most folks have heard of the Black Lives Matter movement. Right? Like, we are actively working to advance the rights of Black people, Black liberation. We are actively working against the violence that is experienced in our people. And the Black Lives Matter movement was founded in intersectional philosophy, and it was founded with this idea that it's not just Black men, heteronormative men that matter, but Black women matter, Black femmes matter, Black trans people matter, Black Disabled Lives Matter.

And so, I think it's incredibly important that we continue to elevate the leaders in this movement, the folks who are genuinely speaking up about the issues, who are sharing the knowledge about the disparities that are happening, who are sharing our joy, who is sharing representation, like all of those things, make the movement what it is. And so, there's definitely a struggle.

There's a gap between, you know, do I go back and forth between my identities? Do I prioritize one or another? Who will be accepting of me? And I think that there are many layers and levels to why that happens. But ultimately, I think we need to come back to this idea and this notion that Black disabled lives do matter.

Their existence is highly prevalent, as we know, and there are a lot of people, leaders and initiatives that folks can get a part of to ensure that we're continuing to boost Black liberation that is also accessible.

Mary: Amazing. Everything you said, it’s so clear and I want to make a note when you talk about all of the health issues that the Black community faces, it’s due to a lack of access to care, right? And Black and brown communities, but specifically Black communities, don’t have access to care. And face medical racism on a daily basis. 

And, I can only share my experience as a brown woman, you know, I live in rural Georgia. I live in southern Georgia. And, my white doctor told me for years, he went, “Oh you're just getting older, you’re just depressed”, and you were ignoring all of these signs that I was ill. And yes, I was very ill, and I got diagnosed years later with multiple chronic illnesses. And maybe I wouldn't be as sick today had he listened to me and not just tell me I was getting older or I was just depressed. And I think about that this was a young white doctor, male doctor, who told me that. Who looked at me as a brown disabled woman, with Medicaid, and just wrote me off. And if I have privilege, which I do have, privilege, and that happened to me, I think about all of the Black disabled members of the community who don't have access to care, don’t have access to doctors, even doctors like that one.

I mean, I was talking with a friend of mine the other day, and I said, they really want us to die. They truly just are waiting for us to die. And it’s so infuriating. And it’s so discouraging to know that I had markers in my blood test that were seven times higher than normal rates. Seven, times, higher. 

Keri: Wow.

Mary: That does not happen overnight. That happens from years of medical neglect. And again, I have privilege. I am not a Black woman. I am a brown woman. I have privilege. But then I think about, if this happened to me, and I have privilege, I imagine again, all of the people do not have privilege, and the lack of care. And the lack of care and the lack of access is killing the Black community, but particularly the Black disabled community.

Keri: Absolutely. It’s an issue that I know is necessary to continue to be a part of the movement. Like these are the things, it’s tough, right? Because it's like we're talking about things that are like “trigger warning” and “fatal” and “rough” and things of that nature. But it's imperative, right? If we're thinking about the advancement of our communities, if we're thinking about the livelihood, then it’s important to acknowledge the violence, the medical trauma.

I mean, seeing that this isn't just historical. We weren't just talking about something that happened 50 years ago. We're talking about things that are happening today. That are very, very active. So, I think it's imperative that we stay involved in the movement, and that we genuinely see transformative solutions to these systems that we're describing.

Mary: And, I want to talk about something that is kind of messy, kind of sticky, right? But I'm not afraid to talk about sticky and messy and all of that because I think these are things that have to be talked about. Because if we’re not, we're never going to have any progression as a community and as a movement.

Do you feel that non-Black advocates are, specifically talking about the white disabled advocates, but we can lump in non-Black disabled advocates as well: Do you feel like they are held to a different standard than Black and brown disabled advocates? I will give you context to that question. 

I recently had my work plagiarized by not one, but two white disabled advocates. And this is not the first time this has happened. And both of them mocked me and bullied me and claim that they did not steal my work. And over the summer of 2022, during Disability Pride Month, I had a tweet go viral. Except, I did not get credit for it. Because somebody who was white took my exact words, and tweeted them. And then somebody else took my exact words, and made a voice over on TikTok that everybody used to make videos for disability pride month. And no one was giving me credit, so let me ask you again, do you feel like white disabled advocates are held to a different standard than the rest of us. Like, it’s ok for us to say, are we held to different standards? Because we are always having to prove, I don’t know about you but, if I post something, I get a lot of, “Well, where did you hear that from, how do you know that?” But, I don’t see white advocates being challenged when they’re saying the same exact thing I am.

Keri: I mean, there's no doubt about it. The research shows that, right? Like, we can go down a list of some categories and talk about the difference in standards. Language is immediately one that comes to mind. The distinction between if you are an organizational culture fit? Right? So, meaning this idea that if we're going to allow you to be a part of our network, our organization, if we're going to allow you to work for us, then there are expectations on how you talk. There are expectations on how you move, there are expectations on how you dress, there are expectations around your hair.

Like, all of these things, the cultural element of the workplace is, and it's important, right? Like having an organizational culture is something that every group has and it's something that is put together. But the issues that I'm talking about is the disparities on who gets to decide what is a culture fit and what isn't right? And so, we've seen that in the numbers and the sense of the amount of people, the amount of Black and brown and particularly Black and brown disabled folks who are in leadership positions, who are in executive positions, who are executive directors.

We are still announcing to this day when we get the first of somebody who has been in a position, even within the disability community. Right? Like we are still announcing the first Black or brown person who is the executive director of a certain type of disability organization. Like these things are still happening. And so, the difference in those cultural elements in all of these different things are translated into economic empowerment. Are translated into opportunities.

And you know what's interesting about the story that you just shared, I appreciate you sharing that because it's so important for us to recognize the ways in which work is snatched from Black and brown communities. But it's interesting how on one hand of the equation, we can be ostracized, we can be cast out, for being too Black, for wearing jewelry up in your hair, for wearing afros, for wearing corn braids, you know. All the different things. On one hand, we can be told, don't do that. That's not professional. That's not a good culture fit for what we do. But then turn around and have certain folks who will take the culture and the style of Black and brown people and go viral for it.

Something that's not even theirs. Something that we on one hand have been told not to do. Don't be yourself. But then when you have another person from a different culture who does it, all of a sudden it's cool and it's interesting. There's something wrong with that right there. So, I think it's imperative that we are protective of BIPOC owned businesses. That we are protective of BIPOC owned initiatives, and that means investing.

There's studies that show prior to 2020 that BIPOC communities were getting less than 10% of philanthropy funding. It was ridiculous. Think of the billions of dollars that are given in philanthropy each year. And if you are a BIPOC led and owned organization, you were getting just the smallest percentage of that. Today, you know, 2020 hit. So, all of a sudden a lot of people started to wake up and they were like, “Oh, snap, racism still exists. Like ableism still exists”. And they started to move around that and started to say, okay, how can we invest? How can we be a part of the solution of these issues? And so even, and so we did. We started to see a lot of folks starting to give more. But even to this day, there is still a $20 million gap between what a Black led organization is getting, receiving and funding, versus a white led organization. Not to mention if we get to the intersectionality and we start to look at if you are Black and disabled and what type of funding you are getting.

So, it is imperative that we stay on the track of investing in BIPOC owned leaders, BIPOC owned initiatives. And it's imperative that we fight against these “culture fit” types of phenomenons that are blocking folks from receiving opportunities. So, you know, I think that's why I'm excited to see initiatives such as the work that we're doing, right? Like, we need to see more folks who are creating spaces that celebrate us. That don't constantly have us in spaces where we're having to compromise, code-switch, all of the different things.

So, I think when we get that investment and our leaders, we get that investment and the funding, is when we'll really start to see a difference.

Mary: What I always say is, don't follow those advocates who simply do whatever you find palatable. It’s like disability is not palatable. It’s only what’s comfortable to you. And it’s like, I don't understand. Maybe it’s just me, but like me trying to figure out why me saying disability is political is not palatable. But then you have two white advocates who are disabled who take my words, who say the same thing I do, and everyone jumps on that. And me saying disability is political, as a brown woman, is a lot different than a white disabled woman saying disability is political. 

Keri: It’s ridiculous.

Mary: Frustrating.

Mary: Oh no, we aren’t done yet. Come back for part two to find out where this goes.

[music playing while Mary speaks] Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Politics of Disability Podcast. As you navigate your journey, remember: disability is political; disability is messy; disability is not palatable--nor does it have to be.

[music playing]